Detainee bill

[Fishman]

FACT BOXAgreement at a glance

-Requires that a defendant being tried by military commission have access to any evidence given to a jury.
-Drops a section of the administration's previous proposal that stated an existing ban on cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment satisfies the nation's obligations under the Geneva Conventions.
-Prohibits "grave breaches" of the Geneva Conventions. Defines grave breaches as acts such as torture, rape, biological experiments and cruel and inhuman treatment.
-Notes the president has the authority to interpret "the meaning and application" of the Geneva Conventions.
-Allows hearsay evidence.
-Allows coerced testimony if the statement was acquired before a 2005 ban on cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment and a judge finds it to be reliable. Bans coerced statements taken after the 2005 ban went into effect if it violates constitutional definitions of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.
-Bars individuals from protesting violations of Geneva Conventions standards in court.
The Associated Press


What if a person in custody is innocent?

Please no other comments. I would just like to read opinions of this question and then post new topics and questions as the conversation advances.

[Tiberon]

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6168/ksmjk0.jpg
If they are fighting against american troops and are caught....they are not innocent. Just like our boys arent innocent if they are caught. They get there heads lopped off or drug through the streets of baghdad. Where is their apology? Where is the UN then?

Is Hezbullah signed up with the geneva conventions? Al Quada? NO

Just kill them....its war....then we wont have any of this mess.

[Tiberon]

Soory fish....i cant just stick to the question you asked.
But this only passed the house as far as I can see....it wont really count till the senate passes. I should have caught that.

Actually...this is a win for the Bush admin. After seeing who voted for it and against it....Its obvious to me that it was voted among party lines....lol...

heres what one democrat said Rep. Louise Slaughter, a New York Democrat, said the bill sends a signal that "America's leaders are willing to abandon our values ... in favor of thuggish tactics they hope might make them safer for a little while."

LMAO....As opposed to Democrat "values", which would leave terrorists free to rampage throughout the country, as is their policy toward domestic criminals. Democrats are far to ignorant, naive, and cowardly to be allowed to influence any serious adult decision.

Im sorry again fish....but I wont be herded into one question to answer when there are to many to be asked about this bill.

[herbgrower]

So Gitmo is really a holiday resort,my sincerest apologies for thinking it was a place where they tortured people to get "confessions" out of them,my bad. :thumbsup:

[Fishman]

Tibs nobody herded you or pressured you to answer in anyway. If you had read my post you would have also noticed I was hoping one question would lead to others in a focused mature manner. I know that leaves you out though.

Not all in prison were caught fighting anybody. Not all are guilty. Wouldn't it be such a beautiful place if everything was so black and white? Is it ok to torture an innocent person?

I just recently heard a story about a news service that hired a Sunni to do journalism for them. Being a Sunni he was able to get into and interview some Sunni resistance groups. He was able to get pictures of fighters in battle. For this he is in american custody. Because he is known to be around fighters. should he be taken from his family, to another country and endure sleep deprivation, hypothermia and water-boarding?

[Tiberon]

I bet when hes let out.....he doesnt aid the enemy. Or at least thinks twice about it again.

And yes...you herder....wanted only one question to be answered. I answered it. Which led me to look deeper into the bill.

Now you answer mine. Does Hezbullah and Al queda abide by the Geneva convention? I dont mind being the bad guy here...but fair is fair....these guys dont play by the rules....why should we?

[SFC]

Well if you hang around with a guy that just robbed a bank what do you think would happen then? You would likely get caught up as an accesory right? It is basicly the same thing. That guy had no business hanging around with Sunni insurgents, and why in the hell should we believe he is the one guy just innocently hanging around with nefarious killers? I hope to hell gitmo is not a resort, fact is we should just do the world a favor,and treat them as they would any of us.... With a bullet. The holy war never ended, but the drums continue to beat louder!

[Tiberon]

....and where do those photos go? I would think they are used in videos and manuscripts for terrorist recruitment. Ultimatly making it harder for us to get out of Iraq. This doesnt help the situation.
So yes....IMO he does deserve it.

[Fishman]

"I bet when hes let out.....he doesnt aid the enemy. Or at least thinks twice about it again."

Sorry man but I can't believe even you would think this is a good enough reason.

"And yes...you herder....wanted only one question to be answered. I answered it. Which led me to look deeper into the bill."

I never said one question. I said focus on one at a time.

"Now you answer mine. Does Hezbullah and Al queda abide by the Geneva convention? I dont mind being the bad guy here...but fair is fair....these guys dont play by the rules....why should we?"

It doesn't matter to me what fanatics do. They are fanatics and hopefully most Americans aren't. Are you a christina Tib? Is that what Jesus would do? I think aMerica has a lot to live up to. We are raised in America to believe this is the best country in the world with the most refined moral values. I believe it is important for america to be the illusion it pretends to be.

"Well if you hang around with a guy that just robbed a bank what do you think would happen then? You would likely get caught up as an accesory right? It is basicly the same thing. That guy had no business hanging around with Sunni insurgents, and why in the hell should we believe he is the one guy just innocently hanging around with nefarious killers? I hope to hell gitmo is not a resort, fact is we should just do the world a favor,and treat them as they would any of us.... With a bullet. The holy war never ended, but the drums continue to beat louder!"

bro it's not illegal to hang out with a bank robber. You are only an accessory if you help. and then you owuld still get a trial.


If an american got that close to insurgents he/she would get a pulitzer sent to gitmo.

You guys ask a lot of what ifs but for some reason ignore the most important whatif. Whatif a person is innocent. Tibs answer is fuck 'em.

[Fishman]

....and where do those photos go? I would think they are used in videos and manuscripts for terrorist recruitment. Ultimatly making it harder for us to get out of Iraq. This doesnt help the situation.
So yes....IMO he does deserve it.

So if he was doing legit work then he deserves to go to gitmo? Tibs have you been reading Mein Kompf?

[SFC]

In the America I live in you don't necessarily have to commit a crim eto be convicted of one, that is a sad fact of our judicial system, and that is even more true if you are a non-white. We have locked up at least a 1000x more blacks for less, why should these "potentially guilty" terrorists get preferential treatment?

We have tried to work with them in the past Fish,and it has gotten us nowhere. Lets just get on with the killing, unfourtunately it is looking to be the only answer. They do not want peace, they want the infidels dead, or at very least converted to islam.

I respect your opinion Fish, Plus I really enjoy these discussions, but what did we gain be being peaceful? By peaceful I am referring to post vietman, leading into th egulf War. Our enemies took it as a sign of weakness. Plus I really enjoy these discussions.

[Fishman]

We have never been peaceful. And just because mistakes are made in our justice system does not make it right to fuck with others. You should probably be i njail right now. CAn the dea torture you for information on other growers? After all it is a war on drugs as the war in Iraq is supposedly a war on terrorism.

You guys obviously have no idea what the gripes about america are in the world. And that's what is so sad. All this wishing death on an entire religion and you don't even know the issues. Most of the issues are overwhelmingly legitimate. You know as wel as I do that america fucks over other countries for its own well being. It is never right to hurt others for your own advancment. And these things have gone on long enough in the eyes of fighters. You would feel the same if the tables were turned. Jail and torture my family and I will decapitate whoever I can get to.

[SFC]

"Jail and torture my family and I will decapitate whoever I can get to."

Exactly! There will never be peace there, so we have two choices 1.Leave,and deal with the chaos that follows us, or 2. Wipe them off the face off the earth,or at least until there is no fight left in them.

I know that sounds terrible, and even when I re-read it I am shocked that I would say it. But man that is real. We are in the final battle.

[Fishman]

Coming up with an alternative is admittedly a challenge. Lets look at the pope for a second though. He recently enraged the muslim world wit ha comment he made. He eventually arranged a meeting with real respect and dialogue with muslim leaders form various countries and it seems to have worked. Now that's what Jesus would do. Open talks and addressing grievances will work. But the u.s. doesn't do that. We have never even tried. We always have a list of demands that have to be met before talks can even start. Talks would work. evidence that talk works: The egyptian treaty with Israel in the 70's. which is one of the main successes of the carter admin. Thiss was the first muslim country to recognize Israels right to exist.

Another was the agreement made between the palestinians and Israelis with the help of Clinton. This would have been a success if the Israeli prime minister that worked the deal out hadn't been assassinated by a jewish extremist.

[Tiberon]

Are you a christina Tib? Is that what Jesus would do?

This isnt the first time you have asked me this. Now Fish, you want to argue your point thats fine....dont drag my beliefs into this. No i am not a christian. No I dont follow jesus. I am not part of any religious outfit. Do I believe in a higher power? Yes.
None of that has to do with my political stance.

If you aid the enemy, yes you are due for some questioning. I dont care if its in the czech republic. Get answers. Answers that will save american lives.

I would like to think a military tribunal is more fairminded and are smarter than you or I to determine whether a man is innocent or guilty. I know they are.

And since when does a NON-CITIZEN combatant get US constitutional rights? Innocent or guilty!

[Fishman]

"This isnt the first time you have asked me this. Now Fish, you want to argue your point thats fine....dont drag my beliefs into this. No i am not a christian. No I dont follow jesus. I am not part of any religious outfit. Do I believe in a higher power? Yes.
None of that has to do with my political stance."

If you were a christian then it would make a difference. It is mostly christians that support W while completely ignoring or changing jesus' words. If you're not christian then it doesn't matter. If you are you need to get back in touch wit hthe saviour.

"If you aid the enemy, yes you are due for some questioning. I dont care if its in the czech republic. Get answers. Answers that will save american lives."

Questions are fine. Torturing or degrading and holding without a trial are not.

"I would like to think a military tribunal is more fairminded and are smarter than you or I to determine whether a man is innocent or guilty. I know they are."

You do not know this to be true. since they are secret with none of our accepted form of checks and balances.

"And since when does a NON-CITIZEN combatant get US constitutional rights? Innocent or guilty!"

The declaration of independence addresses these exact issues. It says all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable human rights. Not just americans. This is part of americans proud foundations. The declaraton and the constitution are the most important things in america. Nothing transcends these documents. And if we don't follow them we look like hypocrits. And hypocracy is one of the major issues for our enemies.

[Fishman]

NEW YORK (CNN) -- U.S. officials detained Maher Arar in 2002 at a New York airport as he was trying to return home to Canada from a vacation in Tunisia. Canada had placed Arar, a Syrian native, on a terrorism watch list. He says the U.S. arrested him and eventually sent him to Syria, where he allegedly was tortured and held for 10 months.

A Canadian report this week concluded that Arar wasn't a terrorism suspect. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales says the U.S. legally deported Arar and didn't send him to Syria to be tortured. Syria defends its handling of the case, saying a Canadian diplomat visited Arar twice and found he was treated well.

CNN's Miles O'Brien talked to Arar, 36, about his experience.

O'BRIEN: What exactly happened to you inside that Syrian prison?

ARAR: Well, I was beaten with a cable on multiple occasions. I was abused psychologically from time to time, and I was asked questions that would be of interest mostly to the Canadian RCMP police and the Canadian security agencies, and possibly to American agencies.

O'BRIEN: How did you respond?

ARAR: Well, I tried my best to answer them, you know, since I had nothing to the hide. But the Syrians, they basically beat first and ask questions second. And that's what they did to me. In fact, on the third day, to my surprise, they wanted me to confess that I had been to a training camp in Afghanistan, which at the end of that day, I falsely confessed to try to stop the beating. The beating did not stop. But the -- you know, it decreased in intensity after that false confession.

O'BRIEN: Did you think you'd get out of it alive?

ARAR: No, the beating I went through, just beyond human imagination. The cell they put me in, the size - it was the size of a grave, 3 feet wide, 6 feet long and 7 feet high. It was dark, it was filthy.

O'BRIEN: Do you blame the Canadian police for putting you on that watch list?

ARAR: Well, the findings of the inquiry report clearly state that it is likely that the Americans based their decision to send me to Syria on this false information. Well, this is not to absolve the American officials who took the decision from any responsibility. At the end of the day, they are the ones who took the decision to send me to a country that they themselves acknowledge practices torture on detainees.

O'BRIEN: What happened to you, I think most people would agree, is tragic and inexcusable. But in the war on terror, mistakes might be made. How do you address that?

ARAR: I think, you know, my story, speaks about basic human rights abuses that happen after 9/11. This was a deliberate, deliberate attempt to send me to Syria to extract information under torture. Now what I would like the U.S. government to do is to accept the findings of the inquiry and to clear my name. That's what I'm asking them to do at the minimum.

[SFC]

There will no doubt be mistakes, and if this guy was innocent then Ifeeel sorry for him. But he also admitted to attending a terror training camp. You know if the Canadians are tuned into you you have to have something there. They are not known for their inteligence services. You should run for office Fish, I'll vote for you:thumbsup:

[Fishman]

as long as there is one innocent man it is not worth it. Same thing with the death penalty.

You wouldn't want me in office. We would be the first country since WWII to not maintain a large standing army. Our defense budget would go into our educational system. I would also work out a deal to completely get rid of every nuclear weapon in the world. I believe if the great america were to stand down most of our army alot of the world would relax and follow. then again maybe I'm ust a hopeful pessimistic treehugger.

When ever america has been indisputably right, (WWII and pearl harbor) most of america backed up the govs actions. If the gov does something that causes such a big split in society then they are probably wrong. There was no split in america over afghanistan. Afghanistan was the right thing to do. I would have loved to see the Iraq budget go into afghanistan. CAn you imagine what we would have accomplished? Another W. Germany or S.Korea. It could have been the model for middle eastern democracy that is so badly needed. Off topic I know.

[SFC]

Maybe off topic, but on point:thumbsup: I am in total agreement about afghanistan. Maybe that is why we let Osama out of Tora Bora, if we had killed him right away there, going into Iraq qould have been even more unpopular, you think?