View Full Version : A new idea for Iraq?
Tiberon
10-26-2006, 03:54 PM
So I have been hearing some talk on the hill about possible changes coming to Iraq. One that rang out was the idea of splitting Iraq up in to 3 different provinces.
One for the kurds, one for the shites, and one for the sunnis.
Only problem I see is the oil wells. Most of them are in the north and south which are controlled by the kurds and the shites.
But from what I understand.....sunnis arent objecting to the idea that much. It seems they just wnat a fair cut to their oil wealth.
Any thoughts?
Stash
10-26-2006, 06:33 PM
only if it will work if 3 are happy with it ....If not its not gonna stop the violence....
DazeChain
10-26-2006, 06:53 PM
Tibs...
The reason I feel that partitioning Iraq into 3 autonomous regions would be ineffective and non-flashpoint proof'd is this:
a. Like you mention'd the oil-rich regions are in the Kurdish northern regions of the country, and in the southern Shia regions of the country...and as far as the recent news of the day goes there...there seems to be some critical tension between not only the Shiites and the Sunnis...but also the Shiites and Shiites...The Kurds would be happy 'bout the partition I'm sure, considering their past history in Iraq's power structures grid...they weren't to fond of Saddam-era Iraq...and actually were encouraged to hear 'bout the US's intentions of overthrowing or ridding Iraq of their menace, Saddam. I feel that if you have a powerful Shia element within Southern Iraq...that would spill over into much more tension, cuz' Iran would be funding the Shia's...and the Sunnis would be extremely unhappy 'bout the way the power structure of the country had been laid out...which in turn would have economic strife trickle down fallout...hence, more chance of sectarian strife...and the likelihood of continued civil war...
b. If federalism is approach'd in a country already mired in a lethal insurgency of sunni arabs, baathist elements, Republican Guard leftovers, and of course the Al-qaeda terrorists, and any other jihad fighter from nayborin' countries who have slip'd into a porous-border'd Iraq...I believe that the US and its faltering coalition forces will be in for one helluva ride...and it won't get any prettier...cuz' if you add to the already dismal failure of the invading forces plan to rebuild a democratic Iraq...and then have the puppet government of Iraq start dividing shit up...that would seem to me to be the perfect recipe for the perfect storm...
Tib...I truly feel in my heart of hearts...that the only way the US and its coalition forces are going to be able to bring stability to the Iraq table now...will be to double the amount of troops deploy'd in Iraq...at the minimum...300,000...I mean this game of whack-a-mole is not only getting old n' sandy...it's not effective...it's getting nowhere fast...and the only way to bring stability will be to yield a heavier hand...I know your probably thinkin'...wtf...Daze suggestin' more troops in Iraq...well, here's the only other options out there...cut n' run...or blame n ' run...and I think that is watt the Bush regime is up to with their recent acknowledgement of things getting outa control in Iraq...and by setting benchmarks with the Iraqi government wherein both sides are in agreement with the benchmarks set...so if the Iraqis fail to perform and complete the benchmarks agreed upon...then the U.S. will say we are out of here and in a systematically measured approach leave the country...and that would fall in to line with a consensus of thought amongst Americans who are generally sleeping through the class anyways/// that we gave them(Iraq) a chance...and they fail'd so now we can blame the shortcomings on Iraq...not the U.S.'s fault...no sireee, ...hence..."blame n' run"...until then...the body bags will continue coming home to an inflamed nation....
No good answers...but I'm still workin' out the details in my mind...give me time...
DC:lite: "got answers"
Well Daze I guess I am one of the sleepers...... Fact is the Iraqi's have not taken control of their country, inspite of all of the cash we have dumped there.
Adding 150,000 more troops will do anything but solve the problem,it will give the insurgents more credibilty taht all we really want is their oil. We need to pull back,and force them to handle th einsurgents themselves, or join up with them. Door #2 would also eventually lead to us wiping out there leadership (Israel rings a bell) . The whole Muslim world is Fucked, and it is high time we realise it!
Fishman
10-27-2006, 12:55 PM
Think a million troops could do it? How many entered Germany or fought in the Pacific?
Tiberon
10-27-2006, 06:06 PM
TOTAL NUMBER IN UNITED STATES FORCES DURING WW2 ARMY:8,300,000 NAVY:4,204,662 MARINES: 599,693. GRAND TOTAL 13,104,355 TOTAL US CASUALTIES:ARMY: 223,215 KILLED IN ACTION;WOUNDED 571,679;MISSING 12,752;TOTAL ARMY CASULITES 807,646. NAVY; KILLED IN ACTION 34,702; DIED OF WOUNDS 1,783; OTHER DEATHS 26,793; TOTAL NAVY DEATHS 63,278;WOUNDED 33,670 MISSING 28; TOTAL NAVY CASUALTIES 96,976. MARINES; KILLED IN ACTION 15,460 DIED OF WOUNDS 3,163; OTHER DEATHS 5,863; TOTAL MARINE DEATHS 24,486; WOUNDED 67,134; TOTAL MARINE CAUALTIES 91,620.GRAND TOTAL KILLED IN ACTION IN ARMY NAVY MARINES 273,377.DIED OF WOUNDS LATER 4,946;OTHER DEATHS 32,656; TOTAL DEATHS 310,979. MISSING 12,780; WOUNDED 672,483; GRAND TOTAL CASUALTIES IN ARMY,NAVY,MARINES, 996,242.(AIR FORCES ARE INCLUDED IN THE ABOVE BRANCHES. US COAST GUARD HAD 172,952 MEN ENGAUGED,1,917 DEATHS OF WHICH 572 WERE KILLED IN ACTION.
sorry for the caps....that was how it cut n pasted.
WOW! That is interesting. Does anybody think this country could stand them kind of casualty numbers in this day,and age? It is almost impossible to grasp the numbers of dead,and wounded for me. We are tripping over 3,000 dead:eek: ?
Tiberon
10-27-2006, 07:34 PM
Ahhh.....the powers of the media and TV
Weedgrl
10-27-2006, 09:05 PM
Ahhh.....the powers of the media and TV
lol...ya got that one right.
hippy farmer
10-27-2006, 10:04 PM
One word NAPALM
Tiberon
10-28-2006, 06:21 PM
I dont understand hippy
are you saying 'napalm' as in how nasty it is and its use in nam?
or are you saying napalm the whole country?
Only asking cause if its the ladder.....your the only hippy ive heard of condoning the use of napalm lmao
I love the smell of napalm in the morning
hippy farmer
10-28-2006, 11:01 PM
The latter
Tiberon
10-29-2006, 06:21 PM
I have a question for daze and all the others opposed to the war.
Do you guys want to win or lose in Iraq?
Winning meaning to get all violence under control and an active voting democracy thus leading the way for a pullout
or losing as in giving up and letting them fight it out while we save our own asses and get out.
hippy farmer
10-29-2006, 08:24 PM
It cannot happen democracy is against the quoran. Real hard core muslims do not even believe in it. If it does it will only be for the short term. You have to understand their culture to understand why it wont work. There are too many factions they solve everything through violence much they follow the quoran to the letter they don not believe in parables they think it is all fact
Fishman
10-29-2006, 10:53 PM
It's a loaded question when you make the answers equal to either wining or losing. Actually I think we should break the country up and leave. Sunni, Shia hatred will never end. There is absolutely nothing short of killing everyone that America can do about. The answer was to not go there at all and to make afghanistan the shining example of a new democracy at work. That was the goal wasn't it? To spread democracy? Or was it WMD? Oh wait I know it was terrorism. No that's not it. It's because Saddam was an evil man. Wait I forget why did we go to war? The only thing that the Iraq war did was weaken us in the eyes of the world. Iran does not fear us any longer. N.Korea does not fear us. We can't do anything in Sudan because the ydon't fear us.
Fishman
10-30-2006, 03:45 PM
Here's a new hypothetical. What if we were free to roam the Earth right now fixing evil wherever it lies? How about some help in the world closer to home? How about we make Mexico straighten their shit up? There is violence and bullet exchange all the time on the Texas border. Most people don't know about it. a lot of it is caused by drug cartels. But just a couple of months ago the Mexican military crossed the border. They could have been disguised drug runners. Maybe I'm just high right now but I think we need to smack Mexico down.
Tiberon
10-30-2006, 05:50 PM
Its an easy question fish.
Win?
or
Lose?
I'm with Fish on this one Tiberon. It is a loaded question, the definition of win fits the eye of the beholder. I could also define a win as regime change. We did that! We stopped Saddam from making,using or seling knowledge, or material WMD's, again we won. We tried to help them set up a democracy, we gave them all of the tools,and dollars to do it. The fact that they cannot contribute to a better Iraq is not our responsiblity. You can lead a horse/muslim to water but you cannot make him drink/think. I do not believe any amount of planning could have prepared us for the assbackwardsness of their society. We are an optimistic people, we thought we were doing the right thing by liberating the Iraqi people from a tyrant. Reality is Saddam really was doing us a favor by keeping Iraqi Shia's in check. One other positive out of this is we are really slaughtering terrorists, our guys are killing foreign fighters like crazy. That is something our mainstream media does not bother to give any credit for. I have friends over there in the Marines,and Army. That is out of their mouths, not mine, I have no way of proving it.
It is time to pull back, and make them take control, it is the only option with a chance at working.
Fishman
10-30-2006, 10:30 PM
They kill a lot and then twice the amount we kill join the fight. If we leave the middle east they wil lbe too busy killing each other to attack us.
Fishman
10-30-2006, 10:33 PM
I don't want to lose. But here is some news for you. We lost when mission was accomplished. We won in a few weeks and then lost in a few days. We lost as soon as the looting began. I want to win, whatever that means. But we already lost.
Tiberon
10-31-2006, 02:55 AM
Okay heres the thing.
I dont want to leave iraq knowing it will be far worse than when we arrived. It will be a far more devastating to the civilian population of Iraq. If we leave.....many civilians will die....and I dont think it would stop anytime in the near future. Then blame will be on us....more so than it already is....and we have to go off with out tails tucked between our legs. Everytime there needs to be an asskickin in this world....this iraq war will be thrown back in our faces. Much like vietnam is.
I believe there is a solution to every problem if all parties want peace.
If splitting Iraq up into 3 provinces gets them closer....than I say lets do it.
Mission accomplished was a horseshit move by bush and Co.....but its all faded out now....ahead is what we need to be concerned about.
Fishman
10-31-2006, 12:13 PM
There is nothing the US can do short of a million troops and all out war like in Berlin.
Why be concerned with civillians? We've killed a ton of them ourselves.
Fishman
10-31-2006, 02:18 PM
Just saw a poll saying 52% of americans polled believed that the US can not win in Iraq. I wouldn't be surprised to know that it is a split along party lines also. Personally I hate parties. I don't believe in either one of them. Most politicians aren't worth the waste of spit I want to put in their faces. I saw a post somewhere here at 420 about who would I beat up on the street if I could. Really it would be just about any Senator or Congressman. I would like to take a couple on at a time. Put me on the Senate floor. I'll be like Jesus in the Temple. Probably get crucified like Jesus too :D . Sorry I got off topic.
Fishman
10-31-2006, 02:50 PM
Okay heres the thing.
I dont want to leave iraq knowing it will be far worse than when we arrived. It will be a far more devastating to the civilian population of Iraq. If we leave.....many civilians will die....and I dont think it would stop anytime in the near future. Then blame will be on us....more so than it already is....and we have to go off with out tails tucked between our legs. Everytime there needs to be an asskickin in this world....this iraq war will be thrown back in our faces. Much like vietnam is.
I believe there is a solution to every problem if all parties want peace.
If splitting Iraq up into 3 provinces gets them closer....than I say lets do it.
Mission accomplished was a horseshit move by bush and Co.....but its all faded out now....ahead is what we need to be concerned about.
Bush will never let them split up Iraq. That wmight start real revolution in the middle east. Not to mention Turkey who doesn't want the Kurds t ohave their own country.
You can't really blame the shia or sunni for fighting each other. They have to protect themselves. The police are really just US trained and armed Shiite militia. Of course the sunnis will protect themselves from that. Now it's in a cycle. It is not easy to break cycles. Cycles are perpetual. I have that part of me that says "lets just kill all the fucks and get it done with". I mean goddamn those stupid fucks. I just want to chill in a cool world where everyone has food and central air/heat. But these dumb fucks are fucking it up. FUCK FUCK FUCK. But then I think to myelf " nah, that shit ain't right either". America is fucking with people all over the world. The powers that be like that we are divided along racial and religious lines. As long as that's happening then we won't know what the real deal is. It really is a clash betwen the rich and the poor. But we'll never get it together because of the illusion of religion, race and material greed. Everybody on this earth could live a green, fulfilled life. We could all live green and still have a TV, an appropriately sized fuel efficient, non-polluting car, nice home and schools. Everybody i nthe world can have this shit. We don't have to drain our planet of resources. Our solar system is full of resources. There are moons with oceans of methane. Enough to fuel earth for millions of years. What is on our planet is nothing. But no. We have to be concerned with ideology, religion and fucking with each other. Are the people that put men on the moon this Goddamn stupid? We have worked out something as beautiful as calculus. We split the atom. We are deciphering some of the deepest mysteries. We found the microwave remnants of the big bang. We've explored the deepest depths of the oceans. and learned to cure disease after disease. We know how stars are born! The human race has an amazing power of analysis, interpretation and deductive reasoning. So God motherfuckin damn!!!! Why are we so fucking stupid?
Because we are monkey's.......
Fishman
11-01-2006, 02:49 AM
How dare you insult monkies like that fucker.
DazeChain
11-02-2006, 07:21 PM
Tibs...
You pose a question that I have ponder'd extensively...any outcome now...is a double-edged sword...
Before I throw down a def win or lose answer...lemme venture this theory...
I heard it mention'd on the PBS Newshour last nite by some think-tanker that as much as Americans think they know 'bout conditions in Iraq...they and we are really at the end of the day...without clue 1...
We think that through the "world accordin' to Bush" propaganda that we are on target with the trainin' of Iraqi troops and policeman. And, there may be a grain of truth to that...believe it or not...but here's the rub...while the military may be increasin' #'s of train'd Iraqi troops and policeman...the question persists...who while all this trainin' is goin' down is in control of the all the other details...like monitorin' and runnin' the base camps...I guess for lack of a better way of puttin' this...this think-tanker express'd concern in that if we leave...U.S. train'd Iraqis will not have a chance in hell...becuz' at the end of the day...yes, they are train'd to serve n' protect...but they would be incapable of taking care of all the other logistics n' operational details that the U.S. military currently is still responsible for...so then, watt's the use of trainin' all these Iraqi troops...then sayin' "let's go home"...only to have them fail within a very short time...that would equal a bloodbath...so in essence...we all know this to be true...the U.S. military will without doubt have to maintain a presence in Iraq for unlimit'd years to come...the size of that remaining force is yet to be seen...
So in answer to your question...do I want us to win...Winning like others have mention'd here...is a rather elusive term when you have a crisis the size of the current one in Iraq...not to mention the lingerin' sore spot...Afghanistan...do I think we won..when we were told we had won via the "mission accomplish'd" slogan...no...I gather you already assimalated that notion with me...however, before I digress...of course, I would like to see a stable Iraq...seeings how you or I cannot turn back the clock...however...I really feel that our need to feel validated with a win...is beyond the fray now...so it is no longer 'bout winning...it's 'bout stoppin' the violence, and the needless bloodshed...and Iraqis do realize that in part due most unfortunately to American unwarrant'd actions in their country...they really have been left with no clear choices other than to fight or flee...and that really sucks...concur?
If there is no clear winning...than obviously...in part to equasions...we have lost...sad but true...we have not only lost militarily...but we have lost politically...and by any measure...that will pay off in ugly-ass dividends...
The key to any level of success...is getting all parties to the table...that will take an extraordinary stretch of the imagination...and one thing is for certain...becuz' of the U.S. force-fed agenda in their country...there will be growin' pains inevitably...U.S. Civil War ring any bells...and one growin' pain that Iraq will have is allowin' amnesty to insurgents to lay down their jihad...and trust me when that happens...politicians stateside will be up in arms...
Here's sumthin to consider...just ponderd this thought last night...what brought the U.S. to the notion that dropping the bomb on two cities in Japan would be the better of two evils...that notion was if the war continued the loss of life would be unbearable to both sides...but still they chose to drop the bomb on innocents...so how 'bout they use the same mentality now...increase troop #'s to half-mil...and eat the possible larger loss of life numbers for the shorter intern...that way this debacle of American arrogance can be brought to a quicker conclusion...and if that reeks of sour grapes...so be it...it's time to grin and bear it...Bush has fuck'd this country and their country no matter how anyone slices it...and for that reckless behaviour...I'll be glad to be a dark cloud over that sick bastard for the rest of my daze...vindictive, perhaps...but it falls right in line with a neo-con's playbook...
DC :hippie: "got democracy"...yet?
Fishman
11-02-2006, 09:33 PM
Are you saying we fucked up by going in so lets do it right by putting more troops on the ground that will increase the innocent deathtoll as well as the insurgent deathtoll? I don't want to put words in your fingers.
Or are you saying we should just be totally ruthless? You are a hard act to follow sometimes Daze LOL
DazeChain
11-04-2006, 06:31 PM
Phish n' SFC...
Clarification is overdue...
I feel troop #'s need to be increased becuz' at current levels the U.S. military is losing ground(control) quickly in Iraq...this is a very slippery slope...not one I would be anxious to get caught on...if the main problem since the inception of this fiasco of Bush2's war has been the fact that when the military gets an area or community clear'd of insurgents...and then leaves and does not leave behind enuf forces to maintain that stability...then nuttin' has been accomplish'd...becuz' watt has been occurring is that once they leave a so'call'd clear'd area...the insurgents eventually return to that area...so it perpetuates the cycle...and we could him-haw around the bush all day doin' that same dance over and over...but then all we have gain'd is more body bags...so if body bags is an inevitability..then perhaps its time we make these body bags count for sumthin'...like gain'd ground...not lost ground...are you all following that thought yet??? Hence my drawing the parallel to the bombing of Japan in 45'...our government felt that the loss of troops for both sides would be considerably higher if World War Twice was to continue...and that the trade-off of dropping the bomb would perhaps save the world from those types of #'s being post'd in the annals of history books...so they chose the bomb over the continuation of an escalating war...so why not apply that same principal now...but rather than droppin' an atomic bomb...raise troop levels to a degree where they can then soon be enabled to get this done right...becuz' that seems to be the thoughts of the majority of us Americans...and that is...we want out...but we don't want out 'til the job is done right...so, duh, perhaps it is time to do the job right...like yesterday...and I believe that would require fresh blood...Rumsfeld needs to go...his ideas have fail'd...miserably.streamlining our military has only served to endanger them all the more...so his plan is bankrupt...time for him to go...let someone with Clue 1 step in to fill his side-steppin' shoes...
Sure, more troops will inevitably bring more body bags...however, I believe the cost has to start being count'd for an Administrations bumblings and fumblings in this debacle of an illegal invasion and subsequent occupation or we will continue to see no end in sight in Iraq...it's simple math, folks, the numbers of troops there cannot support the mission...so if you don't bring enuf hands to the job...watt is the outcome...failure...and as most seem to agree...we cannot afford a fail'd state in Iraq...so it's time...to instruct our leaders to get it right...no more of this beatin' around the bush...either get it done right...or don't do it at all...and by that I mean...pullout...cuz' the outcome in my mind in stayin' without the proper troop levels will be as miserable an outcome as pullin' out would be...so get the job done already...and bring these folks home...who didn't deserve this fail'd agenda in the first place...
Osama, Freemasons...who gives a fuck...it's time this nation open it's eyes...and while the eyes are open...focus on the eight-ball...purge the system that fails us...and get this country back on its feet...we can win...but we won't win anywhere...here at home...or elsewhere if we are divided...and unfocus'd...and hypocritical in our delivery...it's written on the walls for all to see...I believe alot of us chose to ignore the glaring truths...comfortable ruts...paths of least resistance will lead nowhere...they only lead to failure and complacency and apathy...a place I will not go...willingly anyways...
DC:lite: "got democracy"...yet?
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