HELP QUICK! I think I have an emergency! Is this nute burn?

[MigrowGrower]

Are these pics nute burn? I think they are. It happened fairly quickly after switching to Biobizz nutes without flushing. Should I flush?

http://www.420genetics.com/gallery/files/8/9/7/Picture025.jpg
http://www.420genetics.com/gallery/files/8/9/7/Picture002_598425.jpg
http://www.420genetics.com/gallery/files/8/9/7/Picture007_225576.jpg
http://www.420genetics.com/gallery/files/8/9/7/Picture033.jpg
http://www.420genetics.com/gallery/files/8/9/7/Picture028.jpg

The JS has something too....just on one side though...it looks like maybe heat stress or something from the lights maybe

http://www.420genetics.com/gallery/files/8/9/7/Picture011_287811.jpg
http://www.420genetics.com/gallery/files/8/9/7/Picture012_365007.jpg


MG

[Useless]

You have a couple problems there MG. The first plant looks like multiple deficiencies of Mg and possibley N, and it also looks overloaded, possible nute lockout here. The tips of new growth are showing overfert and the bottom leaves are showing deficiencies. .
The second plant shows overfert of P.
The simple solution for both plants is to flush with Ph'd balanced water of 6.5
Then the first feeding should be with 50% nute strength.
The lower leaves will not recover, neither will the burnt leaf tips on the upper leaves.
Hope that helps you.

[MigrowGrower]

ok, I agree on most counts. However, the leaf tip burn you see is from the lights I know that for a fact. Also I dont see anything that looks like Mg deficiency on the first plant. Where? The last plant with the blotches? Isnt that closer to Mg deficiency?

I will be flushing tonight.

MG

[Don de Marco]

Also I dont see anything that looks like Mg deficiency on the first plant. Where? The last plant with the blotches? Isnt that closer to Mg deficiency?

I will be flushing tonight.

MG
Your tools are analogies and puzzles, eh? :lmao: I wouldn't worry too much about the JS tho.

[MigrowGrower]

Your tools are analogies and puzzles, eh?

I try my best. I'm a poker player arent I? : pipe:

MG

[babygro]

Microgrower

If you want my opinion I'm more than happy to give it to you, but don't be surprised if it's different to everyone elses.

Firstly, I see no over-fertilisation on your plants, nor do I see any toxicity, but I do see some Mg deficiency. You may have a nutrient lock, as suggested by someone else, but without more information it's impossible to say.

If you're using Biobizz nutrients (as I do) then I'd say it's almost certainly Mg deficient as Biobizz nutrients are so renowned for producing Mg deficiencies some people now schedule in an epsom salts dosage into their feeding regime.

Secondly, I wouldn't flush, at least not until you have a better understanding of what's causing your problem. Flushing can cause way more problems than it actually solves and in doing so leeches the soil medium of all it's nutrients, particularly Nitrogen - not just the excess salts that 'may' have built up. This is why I, personally don't like doing it, and in my mind flushing should be a 'last resort' when all else has failed - not a first point of call to solve a problem.

Mg def can certainly be a result of excess salt build up in the rhizosphere, high salinity can lock out certain nutrients and Mg is one of them, but don't automatically assume that this is your problem - it depends entirely on the TDS (total dissolved salt) level of your irrigation water, and only you will really know what that is.

I'm more inclined to go with 'biobizz' theory, and that is basically that the biobizz nutrient formulations which are organic in nature, simply do not contain sufficient quantities of soluble Magnesium for the plants requirements. Canna does have a fairly high mg consumption and rarely gets enough when the plant is growing rapidly.

The solution is give the plant extra doses of Mg in the form of epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) which can be applied as a root drench or as a foliar spray - spraying is faster acting, but don't foliar spray on plants more than 2 weeks into flowering or when the lights are on - foliar spray just after lights out. You can root drench as well, but that takes longer to show results. Use about a teaspoon of epsom salts per litre of water or a heaped tablesoon per gallon for both root drench and foliar feed.

That would be my advice, don't flush, apply a feed of epsom salts and monitor the situation. Also be aware that organic nutrients generally have to be chelated down into a form the plants can easily uptake and this basically means that organic nutrients are slower acting than chemical based nutrients which are already in a form for uptake by the plant. Also be mindful of getting the nutrient feed levels as close as you can to the plants requirements - small but regular nutrent feeds are far better than infrequent and large ones and and plants generally require less nutrients than you think - but it does depend on how efficient their metabolism is.

You should also consider using friendly funghi to help your plants nutrient uptake and Myccorhizal funghi are an excellent way of achieving that, I use it with all my plants now and have really noticed how much healthier they are generally and the significant stem thicknesses and general vigour of the plants. Myccorhizal funghi in my opinion is by far the best 'bang for buck' addition you can make to your plants health. It's so simple to use too, you simply add some to your soil or into the space when potting up and then forget about it!

Good luck with your problem.

[MigrowGrower]

Babygrow

Thanks for the inspiring post. I am glad your post was "different to everyone elses" as I tend to go against the grain often in life. Following the herd IMO is not the best way to go in many situations. Often it takes a lot of digging to find the real gold if you know what I mean and I think you may have saved me alot of grief and digging. :thumbsup:

Anyway, I re-assesed the situation and decided against flushing directly. I have no Epsom salts but I have this stuff Algomin which is 98% coral (lithothamne) and 2% Physiolith. It has every micro you can think of and more including 10-15% magnesium carbonate. You can read about it here in DDMs wormpoo thread. It really is awesome sounding stuff:

http://www.420genetics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37365&postcount=30

It functions just like dolomite lime but is many times superior because of the nutrient content. I laid off it this grow because I wanted to keep things very simple but I think that may have been a mistake.

My solution was to crush up the pellets into powder and give about 30ml to each plant as a mulch. I mixed it up thoroughly in the top few cm of soil and watered it in with a lot of plain water.

At any rate. Just before my "treatment" last night I did notice that the condition of the plants had deteriorated visibly in the previous 12 hours.
Now, about 12 hours after the treatment I see no futher deterioration so I think the magic Algomin may have worked. I am going to keep a close eye on them over the next few days and lay off feeding for the next two waterings before going back to a mild solution to see how they react.

Also while trying to find some evidence of how algomin performs in MJ grows. I came across this thread at ICMAG:

http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=72700&page=1

The guy Marijuanaut grows absolutely wonderful plants in a mix of 60% cow manure (it's stuff we get here in garden stores here in Sweden. already burned and has some extra stuff in it, though Im not sure what. Its not 100% shit I know that.) 40% good potting soil and about 50mm Algomin per 10L cow shit mix. I think I will be trying this mix for my next grow. His plants are so PHAT and beautiful looking and only grown under a 400W. He uses Hesi nutes but I suspect the Biobizz will be better especially when combined with the Algomin.

MG

[Don de Marco]

I have to add I pretty much agree on all of babygrows points. I'm as well not flushing - only as a last resort which I needed in my very first grow. I can get you a sample of the Epsoms later along with the molasses which is rich in Mg as well.
I krush them into a fine powder and put about 1/2 dl to 10 L soil. that's a strange one from him, haven't heard that for decades dl. 1/2 dl == 50 ml that's true and equals ~10 tsp.

[MigrowGrower]

that's a strange one from him, haven't heard that for decades dl. 1/2 dl == 50 ml that's true and equals ~10 tsp.

Its the common way of measuring things here in Sweden. dl, cl, dm etc. It took me a bit of getting used to but I'm over it now lol. What do you think of the guys grows? He has some great plants there and all real beautilful IMO.

I dunno if I can get the cowshit at this time of year but I'm gonna check it out before the next batch. The farm store may have a 50L bag tucked in the back somewhere till spring but the also may have returned it....thanks for the offer of the epsoms. That's just another thing to add to the list of "things you cant buy in Sweden for some strange reason"....

[Don de Marco]

Yeah, strange one. It's commonly used for conifers.
http://www.schneckenprofi.de/shops/schneckenprofi/images/products/800000009450/Bittersalz-Plus-03.jpg
http://biogartenversand.de/images/duenger/bittersalz.jpg
http://www.baldur-garten.de/Katalogbilder/Gaertners_Bittersalz_01.jpg
The mixture of that guy sounds yummy to me - if I was a plant.

[MigrowGrower]

Yeah, strange one. It's commonly used for conifers.

:lmao: I live in Northern Sweden. I don't think anyone has any problems growing conifers up here in this massive huge CONIFER forest. :lmao: Money literally grows on trees up here.

[Taco]

I personally never have any negative effects from flushing. I am not sure what everyone is talking about when referring to problems it causes, after all some of the most lush plants in nature grow in flood plains and areas of torrential rains :confused:

Good Luck and hope you get it all figured out.

P.S. ...FYI....Calcium is very important element as it is the element that carries a majority of other elements through the cell wall, so if you are seeing issues related to multiple nutes and minerals consider it in your diagnosis....weather you have to much or not enough.:thumbsup:

Merry X-Mas:thedoob:

[MigrowGrower]

after all some of the most lush plants in nature grow in flood plains and areas of torrential rains

Not MJ. Did you see what happened to The Brown Dirt Warriors plot?

MG

[Taco]

Not MJ. Did you see what happened to The Brown Dirt Warriors plot?

MG
No I haven't but I will assume it got over watered, I was speaking more of the normal weather as compared to occasional flushing not steady unrelenting down poors that would be compared to a daily or hourly flush. Of course to much water is not good but like i said i have never seen any issues from the occasional flush, even with flushing agents. I usualy see more growth following a flush and i just didn't want people to think a flush is a last resort that will stunt growth is all. ;):thumbsup:

:thedoob:

[MigrowGrower]

I dont disagree with flushing either if things get out of hand, can't have plants living in toxic soil, not good. Things seem ok though now and the burning has slowed now. They are 3-4 weeks away from harvest so I reckon things will be ok.

You really should watch those brown dirt warrior videos Doob, they are very good. The guy is a guerrilla grower. One of his plots actually got wiped out by torrential rain.


MG

[babygro]

I dont disagree with flushing either if things get out of hand, can't have plants living in toxic soil, not good. Things seem ok though now and the burning has slowed now. They are 3-4 weeks away from harvest so I reckon things will be ok.

Glad to hear things are improving MG.

With regards to flushing and to clear up a few misunderstandings, as you rightly say, there's nothing wrong with flushing if it's appropriate to the problem, and the person doing it fully understands all the implications of their actions - not all people do and many appear to either do it or recommend others do it simply because they don't know what the underlying problem is. In those situations, as I said, flushing can cause more problems than it solves.

Furthermore, if you're growing organically, as you are, and you're feeding the plants at the correct levels - you shouldn't need to flush - organic nutrients generally do not cause salt buildups in the same way that chemical based ones do, they still do it, but over a longer slower timeframe. Also, when using organic nutrients which require soil microbial activity to chelate those nutrients into plant useable forms, it not only happens over a longer, slower timeframe than chemical based nutrients (which are assimilated by the plants immediately) it also requires those micro-organisms to be present for that symbiotic process to take place. Pouring through a large volume of water through the rootzone can not only kill those micro-organsims and the Myccorhizal funghi, but leech all the existing nutrients from the soil as well. So, after your flush you're left with a salt free rootzone that contains no nutrients and no micro-organisms to chelate down the plants next nutrient feed and therefore nutrient uptake will be slow while the micro-organisms recolonise the rootzone.

You of course get none of these problems when using chemical based nutrients which is supposedly why people who use them don't appear to fully appreciate the potential problems with flushing when using organic nutrients!

Regarding plants in high water table areas, there's certainly many species of plant who thrive in and adapt to living within that kind of environment - sphagnum peat moss is in obvious example, however as you also mentioned Canna is most certainly not a plant that thrives in those conditions, in fact the exact opposite is true - Canna does not like it's roots sitting in waterlogged or soggy soil at all. This isn't really surprising when you consider that most species of Canna come from fairly dry arid places where the norm is draught and ocassional downpours rather than constant rain.

In my opinion (and it is only my opinion) if we wish to grow the very best plants we possibly can within an artificial environment, we should spend a little time looking at how the plants grew and survived within their natural habitats, because we have to recreate those natural environments artificially. Think for a moment just how limited those artificial environments actually are - a container pot only holding a limited amount of soil, nutrient watering by hand and generally under-powered light. A container plant simply does not have the option of spreading out its roots in search of an unlimited supply of water or nutrients - the container pot has a finite root zone capacity, a finite soil capacity and a finite water holding capacity - to compare plants grown in nature with those grown in artificial environments is silly, because the problems affecting them are completely different.

[Don de Marco]

You just shaped my thoughts in words babygro. Another aspect why plants thrive in outdoor areas where water collects (below slopes, ect.) may be the collective of nutrients from the surroundings that are collected there by the movements of the water, draining away. That is my thought on that issue I made up by observations outdoors.

[MigrowGrower]

if you're growing organically, as you are, and you're feeding the plants at the correct levels - you shouldn't need to flush - organic nutrients generally do not cause salt buildups in the same way that chemical based ones do, they still do it, but over a longer slower timeframe. Also, when using organic nutrients which require soil microbial activity to chelate those nutrients into plant useable forms, it not only happens over a longer, slower timeframe than chemical based nutrients

This is exactly what confused me in the first place as the symptoms that appeared done so after only a few days after switching to organic nutes. I fed the plants only two doses of chem nutes before hand and it was confusing to me why symptoms that looked like burning to me suddenly appeared only 3-4 days after the switch and I guess I panicked a bit.This grow isnt 100% organic like future ones will be (well 95% organic I guess they will be cos I dont know if my bottled B vitamins count as organic, most likely not) because I switched halfway. At any rate, the plants seem to be developing heathily and have beefed up a little in the past few days with vertical growth slowing and blooming progressing on schedule it seems. I gave them a feed last night again and show no bad symptoms from it so I assume its safe to get back on schedule with the nutes. They are sleeping right now but I will put a few more pics up tonight after the lights to go on to show what I mean.

I reckon the Mg/Biobizz theory was right and throwing some Algomin in done the trick. I will be adding it to all my soil mixes from now on without a doubt and this should mean no need for Epsoms I reckon.

P.S. ...FYI....Calcium is very important element as it is the element that carries a majority of other elements through the cell wall, so if you are seeing issues related to multiple nutes and minerals consider it in your diagnosis....weather you have to much or not enough.

Thanks for that. My Algomin is mostly calcium carbonate so I reckon I have snubbed out that issue too. Actually it has every micro you could think of in sufficient quantities because it is basically crushed coral with 2% Physiolith. Physiolith is a true soil conditioner with bioactive ‘prebiotic’ activity. It actively increases the amount and activity of the microbial factories, making their output greater and as a result making more otherwise unavailable nutrients available for uptake by the plant. Algomin really is great stuff for organic grows, far superior to dolomite lime. I dont know how it would make a big difference over dolomite in non-organic grows however because the majority (but not all) of chem feeds supposedly can kill microbial life in soils and that would defeat the purpose of the Algomin :thumbsup:

MG

[Useless]

ok, I agree on most counts. However, the leaf tip burn you see is from the lights I know that for a fact. Also I dont see anything that looks like Mg deficiency on the first plant. Where? The last plant with the blotches? Isnt that closer to Mg deficiency?

I will be flushing tonight.

MG

I can't see what advice your were given and have to decided to act upon, but to answer your questions...

The Mg def is the first pic. Bottom leaves. Yellowing and rust colored spots.
The second plant, last pic looks like an overfert of P.
The burnt leaf tips in the first pic, appearing on the tips of the fan leaves and bud leaves would be excess fert as well. However I see you said that was due to light burn. I personally have never seen light burn like that, but only you are there and therefore you know what is going on in the grow room. Had I known this prior to the post, I would have simply recommended adding 1/4 teaspoon epsom salt per gallon of solution to correct the Mg def.
Due to the fact you went from chem to organic, and what appeared to be a couple of issues, I recommended the flush to remove any residual salts from the medium and kind of "reset" everything to provide an ideal environment for the microbes and bacteria to colonize.

Ultimately, the goal is for you to have healthy plants. There are a myriad of methods and opinions (and we all know opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and everyone thinks everyobody elses stinks! hahaha), and multiple ways to get the results you want.
I am glad your issues seem to have been corrected and good growing to you.

Oh BTW, chem nutes in themselves will not kill the bacteria in soil. But the bacteria will starve, as the organic substances they feed upon are not present. Chemical ferts are readily available for uptake by the plant, no chelating required. Usually it is additives such as H202, SM-90, Hydroguard etc that chemical fert users like to add in to the solution that kill the beneficial bacterias.

[MigrowGrower]

I can't see what advice your were given and have to decided to act upon

The following info from babygrow made me think a bit more deeply about the situation:

Firstly, I see no over-fertilisation on your plants, nor do I see any toxicity, but I do see some Mg deficiency. You may have a nutrient lock, as suggested by someone else, but without more information it's impossible to say.

If you're using Biobizz nutrients (as I do) then I'd say it's almost certainly Mg deficient as Biobizz nutrients are so renowned for producing Mg deficiencies some people now schedule in an epsom salts dosage into their feeding regime.

Secondly, I wouldn't flush, at least not until you have a better understanding of what's causing your problem. Flushing can cause way more problems than it actually solves and in doing so leeches the soil medium of all it's nutrients, particularly Nitrogen - not just the excess salts that 'may' have built up. This is why I, personally don't like doing it, and in my mind flushing should be a 'last resort' when all else has failed - not a first point of call to solve a problem.


regarding the Mg problem I looked into it more deeply myself and came to the same conclusion as you and the other contributors to this thread. I haven't experienced many similar problems because the genetics I have grow previously have been very undemanding nutes wise and easy to grow. I try not to jump to conclusions based on the advice of one person and am always quick to question something that doesnt fit my version of reality (even if I am wrong I like to dig deeper to be sure). All contributions have helped greatly with helping me solve the problem. I'm sure you know what I mean by your use of the asshole analogy lol. Anyway, thanks. :thumbsup:

Oh, and the burn on the leaftips is what happens when the tips actually touch a cfl for a while. Its not heat stress so much as singing but doesnt seem to be doing any harm. Only when the leafs touch do they get very slightly burned which is quite cool I think lol.



MG

[MigrowGrower]

Here are the updated pix from tonight as promised. You can see from these pics that the deterioration continued for about 24 hours from the last pics until I applied the Algomin. Since then I have identified no further damage and fed them again with biobizz about 20 hours ago. I am keeping a close eye on them though.

http://www.420genetics.com/gallery/files/8/9/7/Picture001_962427.jpg

http://www.420genetics.com/gallery/files/8/9/7/Picture007_904051.jpg

MG