Politics and War--Don't Read If You Don't Want To

[rangerdanger]

In the latest poll, 6 out of 10 U.S. of Americans want our troops brought home a.s.a.p.

I was criticized for comparing Iraq to Vietnam.
The U.S. invades and occupies a country rich in natural resources and strategically located. The U.S. HAD to do it the gov't told us to protect America from "evil-doers", communists and "enemies of freedom".
After the invasion we find out that all of the reasons our leaders invaded (The Gulf Of Tonkin Resolution) was BULLSHIT--all LIES.
In Vietnam we indescriminatly killed hundreds of thousands of people including women and children (My Lei and many others) mistreated the people who had no connection with who we declared the enemy and bombed neighboring countries. We set up a puppet government and trained a S. Vietnamese army to defend themselves.
But it wasn't the Viet Cong the S. Vietnamese needed to defend themselves against--they needed to defend themselves against us.
The Vietnam war ended because the people of the United States said 'STOP IT'. We demanded the U.S. get out of Vietnam. People were able to see what we were doing there had nothing to do with protecting us.

All through the Vietnam war out gov't said we were "making progress". We could see the light at the end of the tunnel the generals said. Except that light was an oncoming train.

So billions of our $$ and probably 100,000 dead civilians later (over a million and a half if you include what papabush did) the people are once again saying STOP IT.

And when we leave there will be a civil war. More and more we are seeing that saddam was the glue that held Iraq's diverse minorities together. How is what saddam did worse that what we did and continue to do?

In Vietnam we left a legacy of continued death and destruction and human misery through land mines and the use of Agent Orange.
In Iraq we leave behind a legacy of thousands and thousands of crippled people and orphans, and depleated radioactive ammunition.

How much longer do you think it will be before jr. starts bringing our soldiers back home? 1,700 dead so far and more dead daily.

P.S. if you STILL don't believe we were sold a crock of shit, read the Downing Street documents, that prove the U.S. (and England) made the decision to invade Iraq and said they would "twist the facts" to support an invasion.

It won't happen, but I'd sure like to see jr. & co. brought to trail for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

I'm done.

[herbgrower]

Excellent post Ranger. :thumbsup:

Australia was involved in the "helping" of the Weapon's of Mass Destruction,which are still to be found. :eek:

The people of my country,myself,included,did not really want to partake in any involvement over there,and still don't,we want OUR people home too.
Why should they be dying for something something in a foreign country?
And who is really going to profit from all the shit in the Middle-East? Me,you,our familie's?
I really don't think so,i think it may be the oil companie's and certain world govt's which are going to reap the "benefit's" of this situation. ;)

Give peace a chance ! :thumbsup:
:animbong:

[Heath_Bogenreif]

Point taken, but lets see what you have to say when one of your family is at the bottom of a million pounds of debris on 9-11, or takes a vacation in Israel to be blown to bits in a shopping center, or gets on a plane headed for Disneyland to have it flown into a building. This is what lazy democratic pacifism got us into it in the first place, letting the taliban blow up thousands of year old monuments and give free reign to osama?, letting saddam commit genocide on the Kurds? Yeah gee wally thats a whole lot better for sure, thats almost as absurd as comparing iraq to vietnam.

So ranger what resources were in vietnam that the US wanted? What strategy did holding vietnam have over lets say all the geographic territory we already had there? Like south korea, the phillipines, and japan? And how on earth could you mention vietnam without saying exactly why the US was there in the first place? The US went there to friggen clean up the mess the french left behind when they abandoned vietnam after pledging they would help. The politicians turned it into a big whooha kill a commie for your mommy crap heap and once again good intentions went astray.

All of this shit on iraq was on the table and in the works while clinton was still prez, the republicans kept bill knee deep in scandal so his hands were chopped off any military actions period. Bush had iraq planned long before osama and 9-11 was exactly the catalyst needed to push it forward, and this will probaly be the one thing he will be a remembered known failure in, not catching osama and putting all his focus on iraq.

As to not be totally misunderstood I dont think any kind of war is a good thing but if it keeps people from coming into my backyard to kill my friends and family then I dont give a rats ass we used a little force to do it. The way I see it is if you got the balls to make a religious decree calling for the death of all americans then you better learn how to take a punch as you are going to get hit, hard and often.

Also do you really think North Korea is going to come out and tell us when they can nuke los angeles, san fran, and seattle all in the same day?

[SFC]

Politics and War--Don't Read If You Don't Want To. And so it begins. Everyone say welcome to the real ranger. :thumbsup:

[Stash]

Well spoken heath

[rangerdanger]

A. Iraq/saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.
B. Under Reagan, the U.S. gave millions of $$$ and weapons to osama/the taliban.
C. Until the U.S. invaded Iraq, there was no al-queda in Iraq.
There is now.
D. the U.S. went into Vietnam to exploit their natural resources and control the heroin trade in the area (heroin was brought back to the U.S. in the body bags of U.S. soldiers). The French had no right waging war there, and we had no right to "clean up" France's mess
The Vietnamese people don't like invaders and occupying forces. hat's why the threw the french (and us) the hell out of their country.
Just like in Iraq, except the Iraqi's (Iraq is called the birthplace of civilization, and most bible historians place the Garden Of Eden in the fertile delta (between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers) have been doing it longer than the Vietnamese and are quite good at it.
5. You don't think the U.S. has the capability to nuke more people than N. Korea?

[Heath_Bogenreif]

A. If you dont think that some of the billions in the sham oil for food bullshit saddam ran for 10+ years went to Al-Qaedah then I would have to call you blind on top of stupid. When we stormed Iraq we found literally pallets stacked five foot high with nothing but US $100 dollar bills.

B. Time for another history lesson Ranger, Reagan was prez from 81-89, a period where osama was barely in Afghanistan for more than half the year and Al-Qaedah had not been formed until 1988. Any money that the US was sending to Afghanistan was to fight the soviet invasion. None of the money ever went to osama and only some of it went to the taliban, there were alot more fighting groups than just the taliban fighting the soviets.

C. Yeah just like there was no Al-Qaedah in Africa, or any of the other places they took responsibility for bombing. Al-Qaedah was anywhere and everywhere they wanted to be. Welcome or not.

D. Exploit Vietnams natural resources? What a crock, unless you know about some kookie Jungle Disney World conspiracy Im calling bullshit. What natural resources are you possible talking about from third world country that didnt manage to find those resources either and miracle of miracles no one else has found them either? Control the heroin trade in the area? What, pray tell, comic books are you getting this drivel from? Reading too much McCoy? Heroin had plenty of avenues in SE asia in the '70's and Vietnam was just one of them. Kinda funny for such an elaborate conspiracy you have concocted that theres not alot of coroborating evidence to back it, surely there must have been hundreds if not a thousand different soldiers involved with a plan of that magnitude and yet none of them talked? Hey with that kind of evidence, even Michael Jacksons going to walk.

The french had no right waging war?? Well why dont we all just try and erase the period of history where colonial expansion occured and all will be swell. The french first invaded vietnam in 1857, yes thats correct 1857. So youre a little on the late side of the " oh thats bad " speech. The bad part is the french leaving and abandoning them some 100+ years later. Yeah we had no right going in there the same " no right " the VC had to genocide the ARVN.

They threw the french out? Hardly, its a know fact that the french cant take any kind of heat and will turn tail and run at a noise louder than a dogbark. This has been established for centuries.

5. Show me the last time the US made an open threat to nuke another country.

Footnote: Bitch all you want about military actions but dont ignore all the facts.

--- The longest period of peace the US had betweeen military actions was between WWI and WWII and was only due to the depression. Besides that we have one every ten to fifteen years.

--- The only thing we can do to keep this from happening is to do the opposite of what we are doing and thats helping other nations become democratically developed. Stop the developement and you eliminate their ability to become technologically advanced enough to do you harm. You tell me which option the rest of the world is going to tolerate. Democratic developement or Economically depressing dictatorship?

[DazeChain]

Danger...thank you...for your voice of reason...like SFC said...this is the real deal Danger I remember...I will be sure to exercise good manners on this thread of yer's, Danger...I will present many new points to explore...and yer' right the Downing Street memo's { papers} are evidence of the whitewashing the Bush/Blair tag team commenced to applying to the masses...I for one...am tired to the nines of this warmongin' BS...Bush and admin. need to be brought up on war crimes, and that will just be the begininng of the cleaning house that needs to take place...people get ready...DChad :bandit:

[rangerdanger]

You're the one that needs the history lesson my friend.
rrr gave millions of taxpayer $$$ of aid to saddam, allowing him to divert existing funds into his armed forces. rrr also sold him WMD.
At the same time, the reagan admin. was funneling millions of taxpayer $$$ to the jihadists/muhajadeen (excuse spelling) in Afganistan.
At approx. the same time, cia planes were landing in Central America, off-loading weapons to the terrorist contra's and onloading tons and tons of cocaine which they brought back into the U.S.. This cocaine went to the Nicarauga Mafia (yes, there is one), and ended up in the hands of people like L.A.'s Freeway Ricky Ross, where it was turned into crack and helped fuel the crack cocaine craze that worked very well in the anti-drug hysteria the crack monster created, and inspired things zero-tolency drug policies and draconian sentences to all drug users, inc. me and likely you.
And guess who was veep during rrr's regime, and under who's leadership the crack monster was created?
papabush.
It's no co-incidence that the guy who shook hands with saddam cementing the sale of WMD is currently Secratary of War.

Everything I said about the trading of weapons to terrorists for cocaine is well-documented, by that little shit ollie north in the Iran/Contra hearings, and borne out by the fact that the Nicaraugan's shot down one of those cia planes that was full of cocaine, and the pilot freely admitted he worked for the cia (but said he had no idea what cargo he was carrying, which might have been true).

So yes, the government makes $$$ from selling drugs in the U.S. The drug war is primarily a war against competition. It's the gov't's corner.

If you need more proof, remember when papabush said we had to invade Panama (just co-incidentally just before the Panama Canal was to be turned over to the Pnamanian's) and kill thousands of thjeir people because ex-cia-employee Manny Noriega (papabush had been Manny's boss when he was head of the cia before he became veep) was a dope dealer?.
Well after we overthrew the elected government of Panama and set up a puppet government and Manny was kidnapped and in a U.S. prison, the price of cocaine WENT DOWN.
In a capatilistic supply-and-demand economy, that means that after Manny was in jail, more cocaine was coming into the U.S.
Surprize surprize.
Summing up
-During the time papa washead of the cia,veep and pres., countless tons were being brought into th U.S. by his boys in the cia, making him the world's biggest dope pusher.
Under his time as veep, millions of dollars of weapons were sold/given to saddam and fundamentalist Muslims, to help them train and fight invaders.
-During papa's regime, count;ess thousands of live were ruined by cheap. plentiful, instantly addictive crack cocaine.
p.s. I hope you're not deluded in thinking that control of the world's opium/heroin trade wasn't one of the reasons (beside an oil pipeline--the current leader of Afganistan is a former Unocal employee) the U.S. invaded Afganistan. The fundamentalist taliban had wiped out opium poppy production. Bad for (the cia's) business.
Thanks to our gov't, this year was the best year in history for opium poppies in Afganistan.

P.S. I'm not letting the demo's off. For sure since Ike and almost certainly before, the higher-ups knew of the gov't-importing of drugs. That includes JFK, Carter and Bill, all democrats.

P.P.S. Are you aware that a lot of the founding members of the cia (after the army disbanded the oss) were Nazi war criminals?
They had worked for Hitler's secret service, and they had the shit on the former U.S.S.R., so we briught them into the U.S., hid their true identies and gave them jobs.

[Heath_Bogenreif]

Dude you are all over the map of facts and picking bits and pieces that have little of nothing to do with the previous ones stated or have no bearing as a rebuttle to the points I had listed. Then seemlessly you are able to connect everyone being in cahoots since WW2? Wow, pretty impressive, if you manage to skip reality.

You cant say one minute that Reagan supplied osama and the taliban millions in dollars and arms and then try to prove you are correct by reasserting that reagan gave it to saddam. Thats the stupid kind of logic that reaffirms I am correct when I say you dont know shit, make shit up, and bring more shit up that has little or nothing to do with what you had previously stated.

You can continue if you like but its pretty obvious while you do know a good deal about growing pot you know little of nothing about politics, govt and the evolution of military conflicts.

In a day and age where everyone knows everything the magnitude of the conspiracy you suggest would require 300 million people to " look the other way " as well as keep quiet the rest of their lifetime. Unless you know about the military developement of that zapper device from the Men in Black movies, because thats exactly what we are talking about. Conspiracies cant exist in the age of information. At least not the one you are suggesting.

[SFC]

Bin laden detested Saddam hussein. Especially back in the Reagan days. Saddam was never considered to be a good muslim, it's amazing how many people forget this. Although I do believe our goverment turned a blind eye to some of the cocaine traffic, I highly doubt we were bringing it in via military transport. Like heath said there is no way a conspiracy of that magnitude could have been kept under wraps. Heath you are wasting your time argueing with him. It will just continue to escalate,and he will continue to spin out of control, until the eventual breakdown ending in website civil war, been there, seen that.

[rangerdanger]

If you don't believe me, read up on the subject like I have.

I'm stating documented facts.

I don't think you'd want to admit that our gov't was supplying weapons to Central American terrorists (contra's) either do you?
Or conducted an undeclared war against Nicarauaga (after they kicked U.S. supported dictator somoza) by mining their harbor, another in the long string of international laws we've violated.
Really, read up on Iran-Contra, which also included rrr giving ammo to the ayatollah.

Anyway, I see you admit that there is no saddam--osama link.

When you're done reading up on Iran/Contra, next try the Downing Street Memo, which illustrates how the gov't manipulated you into supporting an illegal, immoral and unjustified war in Iraq.
Just like in Vietnam.

It takes 2 people (at least) to argue.
The only way this will deterierate into a "web-war" is if people stoop to viscious personal attacks, which I will continue to refrain from doing.

[Tiberon]

More than 2 peeps ranger bro. I want in on some of this action.

Do you think American intel is going be spewed all over the world pre-war? nahhhhhhhhhhhh dude :thumbsup:

Heres a link and a blurb:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp

The answer to that last question is simple: lots. The CIA has confirmed, in interviews with detainees and informants it finds highly credible, that al Qaeda's Number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998. More disturbing, according to an administration official familiar with briefings the CIA has given President Bush, the Agency has "irrefutable evidence" that the Iraqi regime paid Zawahiri $300,000 in 1998, around the time his Islamic Jihad was merging with al Qaeda. "It's a lock," says this source. Other administration officials are a bit more circumspect, noting that the intelligence may have come from a single source. Still, four sources spread across the national security hierarchy have confirmed the payment.

I could dig these up all day if you like....that was just the first page I have. Please dont call it a hack job either. The weekly standard has been excellent at proving the bush case.....and they dont lie....like the countless liberal pathways....The washington post, The NY time, and hollywood.

[SFC]

I'll give you credit though Ranger. You must have a shitload of time on your hands to dig through all of the conspiracy theory's. I will have to try,and take some more time to dig up evidence to refute your claims. But It's hard to take all the time seeing I have a company to run,and a wife,and kids demanding my attention so forgive me if I don't do a whole lot of cut,and paste. Now that we have set the ground rules, here is a toast to a re-opening of our political battles. :animbong: :animbong: :animbong:

[Heath_Bogenreif]

This is where ranger-logic is seriously flawed, by the misapplication of one event in history and then trying to make that event fit all of history. I dont argue one bit about the Iran-Contra scandle and the screw ups on all sides of it but to say that it proves everything before and after it in regards to heroin in vietnam then transferring that application 35 years into the future with afghanistan is pure bullshit. No more than haveing proof than rangers great grandad was an infant pedophile so therefore ranger has to be one too. Thats the logic you are applying ranger.

But just to be sure what you are saying and stating as "facts" here ranger is that the US Military and Govt have been conducting a corrupt and deceptive racket of drugs and weapons for the better part of 50+ years that spans not only dozens of different agencies and departments but seemlessly spans across both political parties and further yet spans across a few generations of americans. All of that and yet the burden of proof is where? and the small fact that none of it has come to light?

Is that even possible? Like I said in todays age of info, hell no. You would have to abandon several key factors of reality to make that work at all.

Face it the last great american secret has been revealed and for the most part the people that were involved already knew about it and that was the identity of deep throat and that was back in 1974. There hasnt been one good secret kept beyond that for very long.

Thats the other problem with conspiracy nuts is that even well after you prove them wrong they still go on chanting crap like the world is flat. Look at Roswell, it was a secret device for detecting atomic explosions in USSR but try and tell that to any of them now. The other funny part about it was the russians knew what it was and never said shit either.

[Nesta]

i got an idea, lets close this thread walk away, an not look back. As we all know this is a grow site, not a political forum. All this does is seperate members, as most of us saw at GK. Stop now before its too late.

[SFC]

I agree.^^^ :thumbsup:

[DazeChain]

Say, I have an idea...how 'bout if a person decides to discuss politics in this thread Danger started...how 'bout that person utilize a lil'til thing called common sense...and with that I believe we could actually get somewhere...however, with these political sparring matches...we don't get much figured out...

Consider this ya' all...on this Osama-Hussein Al-Qaeda-Iraqi relationship thing...even if this Zarcowedude was known to have vzited Saddam...or Saddam's henchmen...of what value is that past intel to the current quagmire of a failure of American foreign policy in Iraq present day...I think it's high time we stop debatin' , and rewriting history...or revisin' it...and get on with the work at hand...that is getting our military men and women home...and whatever it takes to get that point across to our leaders...I for one am carryin' one of the torches...maybe one of you would be so inclined to get off yer' rusty dusty and carry a torch too...cuz' the times are dark...and we need more light...hence the torches...savvy...so let's turn this thread into a creative thinkin', strategy plannin' thread concernin' what to do about our careless, reckless leaders...for the future is at hand...and wastin' our time with this silly ass fact slingin' 'ain't gettin' it done...time to get 'er done...maybe ya' can relate with that...oh phuck it...We are all on drugs...yea, never gettin enough...We are all on drugs...yea...gimme some of that stuff...give it to me...DChad :bandit:

[herbgrower]

It's ALL about oil !!!! ;)
:animbong:

[rangerdanger]

-SFC, I prefer to think of our dicussions as debates rather than battles.

-Heath, the U.S. isn't the first country to go to war over a superpower's desire to enslave people with addictive drugs.
England went to war with China because China demanded England stop bringing opium into China by the tons. It's referred to as the Opium Wars.
As I said, I'm not absolving demo's of guilt. Some of the cocaine brought into this country was unloaded at an airfireld in Ark., where Bill was gov.
If he wasn't aware of the inner workings, he had certainly heard about it.
But bucking the ci.a. is suicide. Look what they did to JFK once he started limiting the c.i.a.'s carte blanche after the Bay Of Pigs fiasco.

-Nesta, I titled this thread the way I did to inform people that if they didn't want to discuss the war & politics, simply don't open it.
Simple, no?
This Smoker's lounge is for people to post whatever is on their minds.
My nephew is one of the more than 12,000 U.S. personell to be injured in Iraq, and I just found out he may never walk again, so the war and politics behind it is on my mind.

I'm counting on the members here to keep the discussion on opinions and facts, and to leave personal attacks out of it.

[Heath_Bogenreif]

Discussion? yes , Opinions? yes, but ranger you have yet to bring any facts to the table. Im sorry your nephew sent you on a conspiracy tirade and maybe you should have injured him as soon as you found out he enlisted so he could be spared to be part of this massive drug slave zombie machine you have imagined. [ besides the small fact that plan only works if you eliminate everyones free will. ]

Yeah I thought that sounded silly too. A country going to war for drugs? ahem bullshit. And once again ranger logic tries to twist some event from 1830 into todays modern times. And once again hes wrong about the history, the opium wars wasnt anything about enslaving people into drugs, and much like today it was all about money. China had been making their own opium since the 15th century and the British learned the trade from India and found out how to profit from it with China. The british had no goals of enslaving the chinese or taking over their country as ranger-logic would have you believe. But hell read it for yourself and figure out the BS twist ranger is putting on stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars

Then see that hes all over the map of stuff and all over 200 years of history but yet he is trying to seemlessly connect them all together and make them one large gigantic conspiracy, Empiracle drug slave zombie conquerors. It might make a nice fiction book and a movie but its not going to work as a running 200 year conspiracy of the United States govt.

So ranger when are you going to tire up and run out of and thru your complete list of conspiracies and really loose "facts" because I can shoot them down all day with real facts and solid logic.

But lets also track where you started this and where you have ended up.

-- The US starts wars to get a countries natural resources
-- The US starts wars to enslave people as drug zombies
-- The US Kills its own presidents when one individual department doesnt get its way 100% of the time

As much fun as it is to discredit you ranger Im going to have to ask if you want to have a serious political discussion that you focus on one issue, and one time in history. Then stick to it instead of bouncing around the globe and history to show how little of it you actually know.

[rangerdanger]

Heath, since your agenda here is to hurl personal insults, I am going to ignore you.

[Tiberon]

I dont believe heaths agenda was to hurl insults at all. Only to dispute your so-called facts. To be honest ranger....heath took the words right out of my mouth. He obviously has a grasp on history....and I think it bothers you that you got slammed around a lil.
I didnt see one personal insult in there that should be taken wrong. Ive actually seen you say more demeaning things.

I was kinda hopin youd put up a lil more of a fight bro.

[SFC]

I agree with Tibs,and heath for that matter. Nowhere in his last post did he insult you Ranger. I think you better ball-up man. Heath has his game face on. GO PISTONS. :thumbsup:

[rangerdanger]

Telling me I should have injured my nephew invalidated anything after that he said, as far as it involves me. I am no longer reading his posts.
If you don't believe superpowers go to war over maintaining a drug monopoly, read up on
-The Opium Wars
-Iran-Contra
-papa's bush's invasion of Panama, and the seizure of Manual Noriega, a former papabush employee because, as papabush said, "we had to get rid of a drug dealer"
Then come back and tell me it doesn't happen.

Now back to the original topic:
More and more people in ALL parties, inc. jr's own party are calling for U.S. troops to get out of Iraq.
bushco's lies keep piling up. It's really amazing.
And to-day I read something else that echoed Vietnam: as the violence and death toll spiral, a U.S. commander saying the insurgency is "almost in it's final throes". The old "light at the end of the tunnel" statement.
And a few days ago, the U.S. reported that we bombed houses in a crowded slum, but no civilians were injured.
Right.
To U.S. commanders, everyone we kill is an insugent, by virtue of them being dead.